Правомочность упортебелния "their" в singular

link 23.07.2007 21:38

Да, действительно, так пишут (американцы по кр. мере). Как мне кажется, чаще, нежели During HIS first visit. Поскольку я это часто наблюдаю, то и сам теперь в этих случаях пишу так же.

link 23.07.2007 21:51

Какой-то старый фильм был, там один физик все время читал детектив, а в конце провозгласил, что "Джексон оказался женщиной" ;-)))

link 23.07.2007 22:00

так это же 3+2! отличный фильм

link 23.07.2007 22:02

Политкорректность... Уж писали бы во множественном, что ли. Непривычно.

link 23.07.2007 22:10

langkawi2006, а что Вы думаете по поводу сабжа? :)
Вы за какой вариант?

link 23.07.2007 22:12

Но ведь писать во множественном - не есть решение проблемы. А если субъект, пол которого/которой неизвестен, все же один? Their, имхо, в данном случае, возможно, непривычно, но логично. Так мне кажется.

link 23.07.2007 22:14

Ненаюя ;-))) В принципе, я ретроград. С одной стороны, с носителями не поспоришь, с другой - наверное, не стало еще нормой, и вообще, что позволено Юпитеру...

link 23.07.2007 22:16

Покупатели, так сказать, en masse :-))

link 23.07.2007 22:21

USAGE NOTE The use of the third-person plural pronoun they to refer to a singular noun or pronoun is attested as early as 1300, and many admired writers have used they, them, themselves, and their to refer to singular nouns such as one, a person, an individual, and each. W.M. Thackeray, for example, wrote in Vanity Fair in 1848, “A person can't help their birth,” and more recent writers such as George Bernard Shaw and Anne Morrow Lindbergh have also used this construction, in sentences such as “To do a person in means to kill them,” and “When you love someone you do not love them all the time.” The practice is widespread and can be found in such mainstream publications as the Christian Science Monitor, Discover, and the Washington Post. The usage is so common in speech that it generally passes unnoticed. • However, despite the convenience of third-person plural forms as substitutes for generic he and for structurally awkward coordinate forms like his/her, many people avoid using they to refer to a singular antecedent out of respect for the traditional grammatical rule concerning pronoun agreement. Most of the Usage Panelists reject the use of they with singular antecedents. Eighty-two percent find the sentence The typical student in the program takes about six years to complete their course work unacceptable. Thus, the writer who chooses to use they in similar contexts in writing should do so only if assured that the usage will be read as a conscious choice rather than an error. • Interestingly, Panel members do seem to distinguish between singular nouns, such as the typical student, and pronouns that are grammatically singular but semantically plural, such as anyone and everyone. Sixty-four percent of panel members accept the sentence No one is willing to work for those wages anymore, are they? in informal speech. See Usage Notes at any, anyone, he1, she.

Это из American Heritage Dictionary, см. http://www.answers.com/topic/they

link 23.07.2007 22:28

+
USAGE NOTE Traditionally the pronouns he, him, and his have been used as generic or gender-neutral singular pronouns, as in A novelist should write about what he knows best and No one seems to take any pride in his work anymore. Since the early 20th century, however, this usage has come under increasing criticism for reflecting and perpetuating gender stereotyping. • Defenders of the traditional usage have argued that the masculine pronouns he, his, and him can be used generically to refer to men and women. This analysis of the generic use of he is linguistically doubtful. If he were truly a gender-neutral form, we would expect that it could be used to refer to the members of any group containing both men and women. But in fact the English masculine form is an odd choice when it refers to a female member of such a group. There is something plainly disconcerting about sentences such as Each of the stars of As Good As It Gets [i.e., Jack Nicholson and Helen Hunt] won an Academy Award for his performance. In this case, the use of his forces the reader to envision a single male who stands as the representative member of the group, a picture that is at odds with the image that comes to mind when we picture the stars of As Good As It Gets. Thus he is not really a gender-neutral pronoun; rather, it refers to a male who is to be taken as the representative member of the group referred to by its antecedent. The traditional usage, then, is not simply a grammatical convention; it also suggests a particular pattern of thought. • It is clear that many people now routinely construct their remarks to avoid generic he, usually using one of two strategies: changing to the plural, so they is used (which is often the easiest solution) or using compound and coordinate forms such as he/she or he or she (which can be cumbersome in sustained use). In some cases, the generic pronoun can simply be dropped or changed to an article with no change in meaning. The sentence A writer who draws on personal experience for material should not be surprised if reviewers seize on that fact is complete as it stands and requires no pronoun before the word material. The sentence Every student handed in his assignment is just as clear when written Every student handed in the assignment. • Not surprisingly, the opinion of the Usage Panel in such matters is mixed. While 37 percent actually prefer the generic his in the sentence A taxpayer who fails to disclose the source of ____ income can be prosecuted under the new law, 46 percent prefer a coordinate form like his or her; 7 percent felt that no pronoun was needed in the sentence; 2 percent preferred an article, usually the; and another 2 percent overturned tradition by advocating the use of generic her, a strategy that brings the politics of language to the reader's notice. Thus a clear majority of the Panel prefers something other than his. The writer who chooses to use generic he and its inflected forms in the face of the strong trend away from that usage may be viewed as deliberately calling attention to traditional gender roles or may simply appear to be insensitive. See Usage Notes at each, every, neither, one, she, they.

оттуда же, http://www.answers.com/topic/he

link 23.07.2007 22:33

Кстати, как вариант - в указанном предложении можно совсем избавиться от недоразумений:

During the first visit to the store, the customer receives a card with a personal number, which is then used to record all subsequent orders of the customer.

link 23.07.2007 22:46

Спасибо за информацию. Источник авторитетный, что и говорить. Однако, насчет этой статистики.. вспомнилось мне: There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics. (с) :-)))

link 23.07.2007 22:50

2 Maxxicum
Ваша справка впечатляет! :)
Дело в том, что я всего лишь редактирую перевод на англ., поэтому полностью перестраивать все предложение не хотелось бы. К тому же такое usage и дальше встречается.
Да и для выяснить пооднозначнее хотелось бы...
На сегодняшний день это употребеление обусловлено, мне кажется, скорее гендерными принципами (чтоб никто не забыл случайно сказать/написать через слеш her после или перед him) :)

link 23.07.2007 22:52

Упс - "употребление"

link 23.07.2007 22:52

Anton: Да, я с вами согласен. Собственно, они, как я понимаю, и сами не могут дать четкого ответа, как правильно, а как - неправильно.

Мое личное мнение: мне нравится употреблять "their" в таких случаях. Звучит модно и современно )) Да еще и на Бернарда Шоу по стилю похоже, оказывается.

ms801 ✉

link 23.07.2007 23:59

I always change the sentence in such a way that I avoid using "their" in the singular person context. I consider it illiterate, especially in written language. But, many Americans would disagree with me.

It seems like in business and legal correspondence, the usage of "their" in the context mentioned, is frowned upon. In everyday speech and in some less strict publications, it is becoming a norm (unfortunately).

http://www.multitran.ru/c/m.exe?a=ForumReplies&MessNum=98988&l1=1&l2=2&SearchString=singular%20their&MessageNumber=98988

link 24.07.2007 0:03

Thanks for your opinion, ms801.

valex ✉

link 24.07.2007 4:01

быдо уже обсуждение вот здесь

Singular THEY

дело не только в американском английском и политкорректности. Все современные Оксфордские и Кембриджские учебники англ. яз (Headway, Knockout, Masterclass) учат так.

link 24.07.2007 18:04

2 Maxxicum:
Фигасе :-)))
Хоть убейте, это как "оплатить за проезд"

2 ms801:
НАШ ЧЕЛОВЕК! ;-)))

d. ✉

link 24.07.2007 19:31

political correctness be hanged!