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 masher82

link 12.10.2017 12:32 
Subject: Деловая переписка - "Enclosed Please Find" Means You Lost It gen.
Уважаемые знатоки!

Изучая тонкости деловой переписки, нашла сие

People who took business letter writing classes are told NEVER to say "enclosed please find" because it's redundant! I see correspondence using "enclosed please find“ on a daily basis. As the letter writer you are saying "enclosed" SO WHY would you say again, PLEASE FIND? It doesn't make sense.
Good question. Here's the short answer:
Only use "please find" if you have lost something and want your reader to find it.
You might have seen the phrases "attached please find" and "enclosed please find" countless times in other people's writing. Back in 80’s, people wrote, "Enclosed herewith please find."
You may be wondering whether legal documents require a formality that only "enclosed please find" and similar phrases convey. Well, legal writing expert Bryan Garner calls "please find enclosed" and like phrases "archaic deadwood.“
Garner points out that such phrases have been condemned in business writing texts since the late 1800s. In his HBR Guide to Better Business Writing, he cites an 1880 text in which a man named Richard Grant White wrote, "A more ridiculous use of words, it seems to me, there could not be"

Так, все таки, как нынче принято писать о приложениях к письму?

Всегда использовала "Please, find attached"

Спасибо за ваши мнения!

 trtrtr

link 12.10.2017 12:37 
Так тоже пишут. Просто, очевидно, не так часто.

enclosed please find...
Formal business writing for “it's in this envelope.” Until the middle of the 20th century, businesses corresponded in formal—some would say stilted—language. “Enclosed please find” was one phrase that, although still used by some law firms and insurance companies, is well on its way to join such archaisms as “in hand,” ult. for “ultimo” (meaning “last month” as in “I have your letter of the 15th ult. in hand . . .”), inst. for “instant” or this month, and prox. for “proximo” or next month. Perhaps e-mail abbreviations like LOL, IOW, and TTFN will someday be considered just as quaint.
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/enclosed+please+find...

 SirReal moderator

link 12.10.2017 12:39 
пишите просто
I attach [such and such files]

 Shumov

link 12.10.2017 12:39 
People who took business letter writing classes are told NEVER to say "never"

 SirReal moderator

link 12.10.2017 12:41 
однако:
attached (enclosed для физических писем) please find есть всем понятное клише, поэтому, имхо, гораздо лучше пользоваться им, чем изобретать велосипед (reinvent the wheel), он же рунглиш.

 masher82

link 12.10.2017 12:42 
Shumov, это чтоб окончательно сбить с толку

спасибо, улыбнуло

 trtrtr

link 12.10.2017 12:43 
Да, стандартная фразировка, которая, вероятно, некоторыми воспринимается как устаревшая или выходящая из использования.

 Shumov

link 12.10.2017 12:45 
у меня аллергия на любые рекомендации касательно узуса, которые начинаются с "никогда" ))

 masher82

link 12.10.2017 12:46 
Автор предлагает использовать следующие формулировки:

Here is . . .
Enclosed are . . .
Attached is . . .
We have enclosed . . .
I have attached . . . for you
The attached proposal includes . . .
The enclosed document shows . . .
Please review the attached . . .
The attached spreadsheet covers . . .
Please use the enclosed document to . . .

Но все же, чаще встречается именно "Please, find attached" , причем в исполнении англоязычных коллег (Великобритания, Швеция)

 Shumov

link 12.10.2017 12:50 
автор просто умничает на ровном месте))
ждем возмущений формулой "I hope this finds you well an sound"

 Shumov

link 12.10.2017 12:52 
*and

 masher82

link 12.10.2017 12:56 
Я так понимаю, что продолжая писать "Please, find attached" в письмах с приложениями, я не рискую выглядеть учительницей английского из прошлого, а по-прежнему сохраняю деловой тон и не более того.

 masher82

link 12.10.2017 12:58 
"I hope this finds you well an sound"

Мистер Дарси?

 Shumov

link 12.10.2017 13:08 
Вы не поверите, но я не далее как вчера получил письмо (от руки. в конверте. с маркой), которое начиналось с "I hope this finds you in a perfectly fowl mood, for I have some rather funny things to report to you from our blessed little bower..."

 mimic pt.4

link 12.10.2017 13:09 
мои бриты по переписке не парятся ваще...
I am attaching this ... this .. and ..... this ...
фчем проблема?

 48

link 12.10.2017 13:11 
буря в стакане

 SirReal moderator

link 12.10.2017 13:12 
избавьтесь от запятой после please, и будет норм

 masher82

link 12.10.2017 13:43 
Спасибо!

А что с запятой?

 masher82

link 12.10.2017 13:46 
Shumov,

Цилиндр с тростью прилагался? ;)

 SirReal moderator

link 12.10.2017 13:52 
если вы не пытаетесь поставить акцент на слове please, не ставьте после него запятую.

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/389/in-what-cases-should-i-use-a-comma-after-please

 Shumov

link 12.10.2017 13:53 
нет, цилиндра не было.

зато в тексте присутствовали описки, logical fallacy (1 шт.), LOL (2 шт.) и смайлик.

живой английский язык.))

 masher82

link 12.10.2017 13:53 
Спасибо!

 masher82

link 12.10.2017 13:56 
Shumov, you are very accurate

 Local

link 12.10.2017 14:12 
В имейлах - естественно attached, в бумажных посланиях - enclosed/ в имейлах часто вижу (please it find attached), (please see attached), Attached, is.....

В конвертах только пару раз в вводном письме была ссылка на прилагаемые документы после их перечисления: "(enclosed)"

 johnstephenson

link 12.10.2017 16:26 
The author's expressing a purely personal opinion and being very pedantic. I think he needs to get himself a hobby. Everyone says 'please find (attached/enclosed)' or '(attached/enclosed) please find'/; they're standard phrases used in business letters and aren't archaic at all, although 'ult.' and 'prox.' definitely are. They've not been used for decades, although a few legal firms may still use them. 'inst.' is still used sometimes, but is dying out. Most businesses now just name the month: 'We refer to our letter of May 12th'.

'Here is . . .' doesn't sound very businesslike to me. It sounds more like a phrase you'd find in 'chatty' literature/adverts, or in a letter to your friends or family. The rest of the phrases in the author's list are already in wide use, so why has he "suggested" them...?

If you got rid of all of the phrases in English which some people find slightly illogical or old-fashioned, half the language would disappear!

 SirReal moderator

link 12.10.2017 16:50 
well, he lost me at "Back in 80’s"!
it's "back in the 80s"

 johnstephenson

link 12.10.2017 18:42 
Exactly! Also he describes the phrase as "archaic", but also says "I see correspondence using 'enclosed please find' on a daily basis." Well, it can't be very archaic if it's still in daily use, can it...? What he means is "I don't like it". It's the Thought Police (Полиция мыслей)!

There's a humorous expression in the UK for someone who writes to the 'Letters' columns of newspapers to complain about anything and anyone they happen to be annoyed about that day. It's 'Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells'. Tunbridge Wells is a sleepy, middle-class town in south-east England with a large retired population. The phrase refers to self-opinionated people who write diatribes in the media about.... well, anything, because they've too much free time on their hands.

"'Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells' was the nom de plume of a prolific writer of letters to the London Times during the first half of the 20th century. His alias became almost as widely known as the title of the newspaper itself, and was synonymous with diatribe. He delivered scathing attacks on organisations and individuals that came to his ultra-critical attention."

Clearly the author's a descendant of 'Disgusted'!

 SirReal moderator

link 12.10.2017 20:03 
that's an interesting tidbit of information! I have a friend (in his 30s) who lives in Tunbridge Wells, a translator who's branching out into stand-up comedy. I wonder how he'll react to being called this ;)

 johnstephenson

link 12.10.2017 20:17 
Ha! Ha! You're not being serious, are you?

 johnstephenson

link 12.10.2017 20:46 

                  "I'm from Tunbridge Wells."

 SirReal moderator

link 12.10.2017 20:57 
sure I'm serious, why?
are you on Facebook? I can add you to his standup comedy group so you can see for yourself :)

 интровверт

link 12.10.2017 21:00 
is the facebook group public? name?

 интровверт

link 12.10.2017 21:01 
(one can only add their "friends" to facebook groups)

 the_wanderer

link 13.10.2017 4:21 
Посмотрел в Oxford handbook of commerical correspondence:
If there are any documents enclosed with a letter, although these may be mentioned in the body of the letter, it is also common to write Enc. or Encl. below signature block. If there are a number of documents, these can be listed, e.g.:

Enc.
Bill of lading (3 copies)
Insurance cerificate (1 copy)
Certificate of insurance

 the_wanderer

link 13.10.2017 4:41 
Также там есть пример письма:

Dear Mr. Medway

Thank you for your detailed advice of 15 May. We have now effected shipment to our cusmomers in New Zealand and enclose the shipping documents you asked for and our draft for GBP 23,100 which includes your discount, commission and charges.

Will you please accept the draft and remit the proceeds to our account at the Mainland Bank, Oxford street, Londod W1A AA.

Yours sincerely,
(signature)
N. Smith
Senior Shipping Clerk

 masher82

link 13.10.2017 5:19 
Доброе утро!

И спасибо всем за ответы!

 illy1

link 13.10.2017 9:20 
I attach... - сильно, но самоутверждающе:)

 SirReal moderator

link 13.10.2017 12:48 
illy1
почему "но"? :)

 Shumov

link 13.10.2017 12:53 
а меня тоже заитересовал такой вираж карьеры из переводил - в комики...:)
мож, пропиарите товарища слегка? я бы сходил посмотрел его шоу. даже - возможно - купил бы билет О_О

 SirReal moderator

link 13.10.2017 13:44 

 Shumov

link 13.10.2017 14:16 
спасибо.
любопытно.

 johnstephenson

link 14.10.2017 20:10 
SirReal 23:57 – That's quite a coincidence! Well, if he lives in Tunbridge Wells, he'll have plenty of material for his jokes.... :-D

Yes, I am on Facebook – but I only look at it two or three times a year now and haven't posted anything on it for 13 months. After reading dozens of postings such as "Hello, I'm walking along the pavement" and "Hello, here's a photograph of the toast I had for breakfast", I started to lose interest! I've now looked on it and found Konstantin's page and the Comedy Tapas page, though. So when's the world tour...?

 

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