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 Maks_Nash

link 4.10.2017 13:22 
Subject: has not repealed the basic laws of politics. gen.
Marvellous orator and skilled electoral tactician though he may be, Mr Obama has not repealed the basic laws of politics.
Как это дело перевести?
И самого посыла предложения не пойму. Типа, "Каким бы Обама ни был изумительным оратором и скилловым электоральным тактиком, он *ля-ля, тополя*"?

 Amor 71

link 4.10.2017 13:51 
*ля-ля, тополя* - не отменял основной закон политики. А в чем этот закон, узнаете далее в нашей программе.

 johnstephenson

link 4.10.2017 20:57 
Your 2008 Economist passage is saying that, although he's a clever politician who's repealed a lot of laws while he's been an Illinois Senator, if he's elected as President [in the 2008 US Presidential election] even he won't be able to repeal some of the unchangeable laws (=facts) of US politics, for example:

* The US Constitution says that US Presidents can be overruled by the US Congress – so even if he does become President, his powers will be limited;
* He's currently [in 2008] very popular abroad, but is less popular amongst Americans – and it will be American voters who'll decide whether they want him as US President, not foreign voters;
* He may not even win the election – and if he loses, he'll obviously have no powers to change or do anything.

So it's saying that, even if he does become President, there are lots of basic constitutional laws in America, such as those describing the relationship between the President and Congress, that he won't be able to change.

 Amor 71

link 4.10.2017 21:49 
I disagree with you, Mr. John. Laws of politics is not the same as laws of the country.
The laws of politics simply means how the politics is conducted. Establish game rules, that most elected politicians follow.
For instance:
http://spinstrangenesscharm.wordpress.com/laws-of-politics/

The article simply says, no matter how different is Obama, he has to follow certain requirements and rituals set by the Washington establishment. In other words, he can not act freely as he wishes.

 Amor 71

link 4.10.2017 21:50 
Established.

 Erdferkel

link 4.10.2017 22:12 
стесняюсь спросить: "скилловый электоральный тактик" - это на каком языке?

 Wolverin

link 4.10.2017 22:22 
брайтонский диалект, т.к. Рома с ходу просек.

 johnstephenson

link 5.10.2017 16:00 
Amor 71: That's exactly what I said!

"even if he does become President, there are lots of basic constitutional laws in America, such as those describing the relationship between the President and Congress, that he won't be able to change."

 Amor 71

link 5.10.2017 16:25 
Yes, but you are talking about separation of power described by constitution. I am talking about unwritten rules of politics, political games under the carpet that are invisible to regular folks.
Something like democratic party leaders could say to Obama: "Listen, we are going to make you a candidate, but remember, you mast do this, this, and that. You can't do this and this without our approval". That is basic law of politics and has nothing to do with constitution or congress.

Mr Obama has not repealed the basic laws of politics - just means Obamas come and go, but the basic laws of politics ( political etiquette, if you wish) last I checked, are still there. In Russian they say "пока еще никто не отменял"

 SirReal moderator

link 5.10.2017 17:10 
amazingly, I tend to agree with Amor 71 on this one

 00002

link 5.10.2017 19:11 
По-моему, в статье под basic laws of politics подразумевается не какой-то специальный политический этикет или подковерности вашингтонского истеблишмента, а тот действительно базовый факт, что вопрос решается не тем, насколько хорошо или убедительно человек говорит, а тем, насколько избиратели захотят проголосовать за него на выборах, а также поддерживать после этого (что тоже важно, так как без такой поддержки ухудшатся его возможности проводить свою линию, в том числе и через Конгресс). Каким бы "культурным и просвещенным европейцем" он европейцам ни казался, он никак не сможет быть изолирован от настроений своих избирателей в США.

Эту мысль, кстати, автор и сам раскрывает далее, причем буквально в следующей же фразе:

Most obviously, he may not win. … Mr Obama still definitely has the edge, but opinion at home diverges sharply from that in most of the rest of the world.

И далее продолжает раскрывать:

Second, President Obama would not be answerable to the world that so adores him. A president is elected by America's more ambivalent people, and is accountable only to them. …

Finally, there are some disquieting signs of a tendency on Mr Obama's part to tailor his message to whichever audience he is talking to. … [and his] two-steps have become Astaire-like.

То есть не обольщайтесь: он говорит красивые европейские вещи, возможно, отчасти, потому что он говорит их европейцам. А делать он будет то, что нужно чтобы получить поддержку американцев, своих избирателей, а не европейцев, какими бы близкими по духу они ему ни были. Таковы суровые законы политической физики, и отменить их не получится даже у самого совершенного оратора.

 Amor 71

link 5.10.2017 19:23 
Ну да, в целом то же самое. Я просто привел пример с однопартийцами. А смысл в том, что будет поступать, как надо, как того требует политическая жизнь общества, а не так, как хотел бы он лично.
Избиратель или эстаблишмент- это неважно. Всё это политические игры с установившимися правилами, и он обязан следовать им.

 00002

link 5.10.2017 20:00 
Ну, на мой взгляд не совсем то же. Или даже совсем не то же. Он будет поступать так, чтобы за него голосовали избиратели, говорит автор. Про истеблишмент автор не говорит.

И избиратель или истеблишмент – это важно. Избиратель – это базовое. А истеблишмент с его условностями (игра по определению условность) не базовое, можно играть с ним, а можно и против него.

За примерами далеко ходить не надо – ваш нынешний президент в праймериз весь истеблишмент своей партии послал лесом. Они все пытались ему втолковать, что ты, мол, со своим безвкусным нарциссизмом иди домой дальше строить гигантские фаллические символы и писать на них свою фамилию, а в дело тонкое, в политику, не лезь, здесь думать надо. Он послал их и они дружно все со своими установившимися правилами пошли. А потом и побежали. За ним. Как только поняли, что избирателю как раз его вот этот безвкусный нарциссизм и все такое и нравится.

Правда, ему потом удалось послать и избирателя, на самих выборах, и выиграть, набрав заметно меньше голосов, чем соперник, но это уже случайность, уж больно хорошо для него они легли, голоса, и вряд ли можно быть настолько тонким электоральным тактиком, чтобы такой расклад просчитать и создать специально. Это уже сработал не базовый закон политики, а ее атавизм.

 johnstephenson

link 6.10.2017 22:27 
Hi, Amor 71.

The sort of 'laws' you're talking about, examples of which you show in your link are, of course, more philosophical laws than real, legal laws. They're 'laws' which describe how politicians and people tend to think and behave. That was also what I thought the author meant by 'laws' when I first read the asker's sentence: that the author was referring to philosophical laws rather than real, statutory ones. (The first example I thought of was Lord Acton(?)'s quotation "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely", although your list is much more comprehensive).

Then, because the asker had given very little context, I decided to search for the original article. It's at http://www.economist.com/taxonomy/term/108?page=373 . The asker's quotation is about ⅓ of the way down. If you read the whole paragraph and the ones above and below it, you'll see that in fact the author's talking not about general, philosophical laws (which I also assumed at first), but about real, constitutional (statutory) US laws. The three examples I gave at 23:57 are in fact all taken from the article, and 00002 has listed a few more. The 'laws' the author refers to are all ones which form part of the US Constitution and lay down: the relationship between the Congress and President; who can elect the President and who can't (Americans, not foreigners); how elections must be conducted; and, as the author makes clear, how you can't have any presidential powers at all, unless voters firstly elect you President.

So the author's not talking about general, philosophical 'laws' of human behaviour at all; he's talking about real, US constitutional/legal laws which, he also makes clear, Obama has no powers to change.

 Amor 71

link 6.10.2017 23:19 
Thanks, John.
Maybe I should express myself more clearly. You are saying that "the author makes clear, Obama has no powers to change the constitutional/legal laws". But there is nothing in the article pointing any legal law.
First of all he says: "Mr Obama has not repealed the basic laws of politics"
See, laws of politics, no US laws. Moreover, Obama as a candidate in 2008 definitely "has not repealed" any legal law simply because that time he was nobody - neither a lawmaker, nor a president. But as a politician he possibly could repeal, as you said, philosophical laws.

Secondly, in my understanding of the author's points, he says that foreigners should hold their horses. Why? Because there are things (the basic laws of politics) that nobody can change, even a "marvellous orator" like Obama. And those things are:
1. He needs to be elected at the first place, and that's up to Americans.
2. Congress need to be on his side.
3. Sometimes he looks like a liar and can't be trusted. (but that's OK for a politician)

Do you really think here, that the author is talking about changing US legal system? Or it is about political realities in connection with presidential election?

 johnstephenson

link 7.10.2017 20:20 
Hi Amor,

He's saying that Obama's supporters abroad should be cautious if they expect him to win and then be a good President, and begins by giving the three reasons you've listed. The first two of these are linked to real (US statutory/constitutional) laws governing how a US President gets elected, who can and cannot vote for him, and his relationship with the Congress if he is elected. When the author says Obama "has not repealed the basic laws of politics", he's not implying that he's already been President but failed to repeal them; he's simply saying that, however good Obama may be as an orator and tactician, those statutory/constitutional laws are still the same as they've always been, and so he'll have to operate within them.

The third reason the author gives isn't a rule or law; it's simply an observation, as you say, that Obama says different things to different audiences, and so when he promises to do things, you can't trust him to do it if he does become President. (Yes, typical of most politicians!)

You say "there is nothing in the article pointing [to] any legal law". No, it doesn't say "legal law" specifically, but it's obvious that that's what he's talking about, because the rules covering how US presidential elections are conducted, who can and cannot vote, and a President's relationship with the Congress, will all be written into US statutory laws, probably the US Constitution. Where else would they be??? My point was simply that 'repeal' here doesn't refer to philosophical 'laws' such as those listed in your link; it refers to real (statutory) laws.

 интровверт

link 7.10.2017 21:03 
statutory laws are actually less "real" than observed ones ... when you think about it

 johnstephenson

link 8.10.2017 20:28 
интровверт: What a pedant!

 

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