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Subject: 2 Earl - obespechitel'nyye mery Pomnitsia, obsuzhdalsia kak-to na forume vopros o tom, kak adekvatno perevesti na angliyskiy nashi "obespechitel'nye mery" (prinimayemyye sudom po hodataystvu odnoy iz storon, do razresheniya dela po sushchestvu).Tut nedavno v ochen' pohozhem contxt'e uvidel v angliyskom izlozhenii hoda odnogo sudebnogo razbiratel'stva termin "interlocutory order". Shto dumayete, kollega? Kstati, naschet "proprietary info" poka nichego ne uidalos' naryt'? |
| Da, zabyl, eto, konechno, v dopolneniye ko vsem prochim obsuzhdavshimsia variantam tipa "interim measures", etc... |
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depends on what the courth enters the order to do/not to do (again, where? in america?). same applies to "provisional remedy" and "injunction." i prefer injunction, 'cause i deal with injunctions rather than, let's say, specific performance or payment/deposit orders, which all fall within "provisional remedy" which happens to be as generic. don't remember having seen or ever used "interin measures" in any legal sense. Re.: "proprietary info": naryl, but i think i'll have to elaborate a bit on the etimology of the subj. ain't got much time now. Also, found something on "best efforts/reasonable efforts." but not in english law as you wanted. i'll try and explain later this week, okay? |
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Помнится, этот вопрос меня занимал. Вродя я его и задавал. И естественно, меня интересовал перевод этих "мер" на Английский язык. irregardless of jurisdiction *S* (c) Val. I thought "injunction" and "enjoin" were okay, but my colleagues thought otherwise. Still uncertain which is best. TIA |
| 2Yuri: дело не только и не столько в юрисдикции. просто то, что мне приходится переводить, не требует АБСОЛЮТНОЙ точности, поэтому вместо generic, родового понятия "обеспечительные меры" я могу поставить вполне конкретный injunction, relief, etc. и при этом я ориентируюсь на право сша. абсолютная точность здесь мне ни к чему, потому что эти термины обычно встречаются либо в исковом заявлении, либо в отзыве на иск, либо в ходатайстве, либо в решении суда. официальный язык в них -- русский. a английский перевод -- неофициальный, делается просто так, для сведения клиента, чтобы он имел представление, как мы тут стоим на стрёме его интересов. в таком контексте замена родового понятия видовым катит (я, чесговоря, не уверен, что в общем праве вообще есть такое родовое понятие. и вообще common law is very case-oriented, казуистичное). free lances in a worse position. they don't know the whole case, and cannot deviate. feel real sorry for the guys. |
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Thanx, Earl. Absolutno soglasen - chances are, in common law the CONCEPT may simply not exist at all, in the sense that they just do not use a generic term but rather go straight into the specifics (t.e. injunction - tak injunction, etc...). A voobshe - "interlocutory" ne vstrechali v takom context'e? |
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Встречал, конечно. Только, ИМХО, interlocutory order шире по значению, нежели обеспечительные меры; назначение у них может быть разное, да и акценты расставлены у них по-другому. В России: "Арбитражный суд по заявлению лица, участвующего в деле, а в случаях, предусмотренных настоящим Кодексом, и иного лица может принять СРОЧНЫЕ ВРЕМЕННЫЕ МЕРЫ, НАПРАВЛЕННЫЕ НА ОБЕСПЕЧЕНИЕ ИСКА ИЛИ ИМУЩЕСТВЕННЫХ ИНТЕРЕСОВ ЗАЯВИТЕЛЯ (ОБЕСПЕЧИТЕЛЬНЫЕ МЕРЫ)." АПК РФ, п. 1 ст. 91. В США: "An interlocutory order or decree is one which does not finally determine a cause of action but only decides some intervening matter pertaining to the cause, and which requires further steps to be taken in order to enable the court to adjudicate the cause on the merits." In re Merle's Inc., C.A.Wash. 481 F2nd 1016, 1018. |
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Yeah, I agree. Naschet "obespechitel'nyh"-- deistvitel'no obsuzhdalis i "interim", i "provisional" (...relief or measures). A vot, kstati, tozhe naschet "mer": est kakye-nit' udachnyi varianty na "mery presecheniya"? Ya videl raznoye, v chastnosti "measures of restraint", but I guess it's just yet another example of Russian "iuridicheskaya nauka" using a GENERIC term which simply does not exist in English. Te prosto govoriat tipa "bail hearing", "bail was requested and granted (or denied"), etc... - t.e. Anglo -Saxy srazu dayut konkretiku, ne razmazyvaya vopros po generics. Whaddya say? |
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I'd say I'd avoid translating 'mery presecheniya' à tout prix. Whatever the actual original might be, I'd twist and write, "(s)he was held in custody/released on bail/told not to leave town, etc. PENDING [THE INVESTIGATION AND] TRIAL." You see, I'm in a unique position: as a lawyer cum translator, I've only got to follow the twists of the original where I translate (I mean TRANSLATE) contracts and the occasional law. That's where I'm the translator. The law practice I'm with now is in civil law. I've never had to translate indictments, criminal judgments, or 'postanovleniya prokurora.' Even as I 'translate,' let's say, a tax ruling, I normally REWRITE it in the tax law ling (in either of the two languages) for the case-handling partners to be at home with. I also rewrite most of what they give me to render in the other language. That's perhaps why my advice on subjects like this is frequently this sweepingly bold: "Забей"! Re. "Russian 'iuridicheskaya nauka' using a GENERIC term": From my experience of reading and practicing law in three jurisdictions, I find generics are VERY convenient in 'reading law,' as they give you the 'big picture' when you are a still a rookie, but terribly ill suited for practice, be it common or civil law. IMHO, American law schools with their hard to eat Socratic method will only benefit from a modicum of generalization and abstraction. But practitioners will definitely not. |
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Thanks for that, Earl. Soglasen prakticheski so vsem. |
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