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 марияMARY

link 4.10.2016 19:04 
Subject: whose + неодушевлен сущ gen.
Уважаемые переводчики почему сейчас так распространено употреблять whose c неодуш.существ?
вот например предложение из текста договора английской компании

The Buyer undertakes to purchase goods whose cost is less than....

Это правильно??

 Petrelnik

link 4.10.2016 19:14 
Погуглите англоязычные обсуждения по этому вопросу. Что-то я читала, но уже забыла.
Кто-то за, кто-то против whose с неодушевленными существительными. Аргументов не помню)

 натрикс

link 4.10.2016 19:33 
да, "по сложившейся практике" это нормально.
из "приличных источников" - навскидку этот.
http://books.google.by/books?id=anecAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA2027&lpg=PA2027&dq=relative+Possessive+determiner+of+whom+or+which+(used+to+indicate+that+the+following+noun+belongs+to+or+is+associated+with+the+person+or+thing+mentioned+in+the+previous+clause)&source=bl&ots=TZjydppHDO&sig=TaC9TXxaUB_oVVKZB0ytNQ1D3e0&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
*relative Possessive determiner of whom or which (used to indicate that the following noun belongs to or is associated with the person or thing mentioned in the previous clause)*

 johnstephenson

link 4.10.2016 20:30 
It's used with inanimates as well as animates only because no word exists in English which is the inanimate equivalent of the animate 'whose'; the only construction we have for inanimates is this:

animate: 'The woman WHOSE glasses are too big'
inanimate: 'The house, THE windows OF WHICH are too big'

Most people find the construction 'the ...... of which' too wordy, so as no-one's yet invented a word such as 'whatse', we cheat by using the animate 'whose' instead:

'the house WHOSE windows are too big'.

That's the only reason. If it helps, lots of English people think it sounds slightly odd too. Perhaps I should invent and patent the word 'whatse' and make myself very rich...?

 Wolverin

link 4.10.2016 20:46 

 Amor 71

link 4.10.2016 21:12 
My rule number 634:
If something is grammatically acceptable but sounds odd - do not use it.
Instead of ''the house WHOSE windows are too big." you always can write "the house that has too big windows".

 Aiduza

link 4.10.2016 22:00 
whose with inanimate objects - ЭТО НОРМА!

 натрикс

link 4.10.2016 22:13 

 Aiduza

link 4.10.2016 22:46 
^_ _^

 Aiduza

link 4.10.2016 22:47 
"Извращений, собственно, только два: хоккей на траве и балет на льду."
— Ф. Раневская

 johnstephenson

link 4.10.2016 23:49 
Amor 71: No, it's common practice to use 'whose' with objects, even if it does sound slightly odd. You can say 'the house that has too big windows', but it sounds even more odd, at least to me as a Brit. You can get round the problem in your example by saying something like 'the house that has windows that are too big', but it's a mouthful, which is why lots of people just use 'whose'.

The BBC uses it:
* "Quentin Willson drives the car whose avant-garde lines took France by storm in 1955"
* "a house whose garden backed onto the one I was in"

and Collins' English Dictionary defines it as:
"1. a. of whom? belonging to whom? used in direct and indirect questions ⇒ I told him whose fault it was, ⇒ whose car is this?
b. (as pronoun) ⇒ whose is that?
2. of whom; belonging to whom; of which; belonging to which: used as a relative pronoun ⇒ a house whose windows are broken."

If it's good enough for Collins and the BBC, it's good enough for me. It may not sound ideal to linguists/grammarians like you and me, but everyone else uses it -- because there's no other single word they can use.

 Amor 71

link 4.10.2016 23:55 
johnstephenson,
I do not disagree with you. My rule is for me. Even something is perfectly normal and I know that, but it sounds funny to me, I would not use it. The same is true when I write in Russian.
Yes, I am convinced now, that "whose" is OK with inanimate but I still would not use it. At least for a while.

 johnstephenson

link 5.10.2016 0:47 
Amor: I also don't particularly like using it and will sometimes try to think of an alternative (short) construction, but usually there isn't one, unfortunately.

 SirReal moderator

link 5.10.2016 5:46 
re
Instead of ''the house WHOSE windows are too big." you always can write "the house that has too big windows".

Роман, на сей раз все-таки сдержусь в выражениях и буду учтив. но строг, как всегда. нельзя сказать "the house that has too big windows". это неграмотно. я понимаю, Вы ненарочно. и, к Вашей вести, я заметил, что Вы стали реже претендовать на "нативность" и истину в последней инстанции в том, что касается США и тамошнего варианта английского. продолжайте в том же духе. the sky is the limit.

 SirReal moderator

link 5.10.2016 5:46 
опечатка, вышенаписанное следует читать как "к Вашей чести"

 johnstephenson

link 5.10.2016 19:58 
SirReal: I'm quite happy for Amor (or anyone else) to challenge what I say and disagree with me. It's a discussion forum, after all....

 wow2

link 5.10.2016 20:02 
22:58 +1
i am, too, quite happy for SirReal to challenge what Amor (or anyone else) says and to disagree with them

 SirReal moderator

link 6.10.2016 6:11 
wow2
do feel free to ping me if a thread on this forum needs my input.

 

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